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#1 chat_cath

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:08 PM

Not sure who he is, but Leaf Nutt writes :

 

 

  • Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It's time we put thing in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That ...would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to......... 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours).
  •  
  • Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.... That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).
  •  
  • What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is!

 

The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!! Heaven forbid we take into account highly qualified teachers or NCLB.

 

Make a teacher smile; re-post this to show appreciation ♥



#2 mom2nico

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:56 PM

I shared this on Facebook today too. Love it!

#3 Leslie

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 08:46 PM

There is a great post in FB written by an Ontario  teacher Karen Elizabeth that I wish I could paste into here. It's a very well written perspective on the ongoing situation. 


Edited by Leslie, 12 January 2013 - 08:47 PM.


#4 Leslie

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:34 PM

This was post I was referring to on FB that I found to be an excellent blog...

 

 
Are Those Darn Teachers Still Complaining About Their Salaries?
by Karen Elizabeth on Wednesday, December 5, 2012 at 11:17pm ·
 

Are Those Darn Teachers Still Complaining About Their Salaries?

An opinion piece, by Karen Nancarrow, Ontario Certified Teacher

 

I’ve just read one too many teacher bashing posts on Facebook today.

 

As a teacher, I will of course, provide a slanted opinion, but here you are. Disagree with me if you’d like, but not until you read this entire article, start to finish.

 

I love my job. Period. I would do it for less money, fewer sick days, and less time off. I would do it if I had to be tested yearly by the government to show that I know my stuff, and even if extra-curriculars were forced on me. I would still do it. I love it.

 

I went into teaching because I love kids. Yes, there are many people who think we go into this profession for the money, but please consider this. A starting teacher’s salary in our school board is $39 000. And this is after an average of 5-7 years to get a contract. In order to move up on the pay grid, teachers must have years of experience (so our salary goes up a little every year up to a maximum of 10 years) and we must also take extra courses in order to be paid the maximum amount. So in order to reach the top of the pay scale, a teacher must have had a contract for 10 years and have taken several extra university credits (paid out of their own pockets AFTER two university degrees).

 

So given that it might take 10-15 years to make it to the top of the pay scale (which is still a modest amount), many people’s assertion that teachers are in this for the money really have no justification for their position. When you ask teachers to look at “how good we have it”, please realize that when we go into teaching, the reasons are NEVER about the money!  If I wanted to get rich, I definitely would not have chosen teaching as a career.  

 

Pensions:  Yes, we have a good one.  Because we PAY for it!!  Every maternity leave that I’ve taken (3 in total), I have paid back my pension and paid $10,000 plus each time to keep it updated.  Pulled it out of an RRSP.  

 

So putting the money argument aside for a moment, this fight with the government actually has NOTHING to do with money. The bottom line for most teachers is that we have the RIGHT to negotiate with our employer. In fact, when this whole thing first got started, most teachers I know said “pay freeze for two years – yup, times are tough – we get it”. But it was only after more details evolved that we realized that the government wants to take away WAY more than two years of a pay increase.

 

Some say that we should be negotiating with our employers.

 

POINT OF CLARIFICATION here – the government is NOT our employer!!  The school boards are.   Imagine a third party coming in, going over your employer, who you have a good working relationship with, and telling you and them what you will be paid, how many sick days you will get, what days you will take off without pay, and that EVERYTHING you have negotiated with your employer in the last 20 years has now just been taken away in a heartbeat. No discussion. You have no say and your employer has NO say.  Not even 5 minutes of discussion were we given – thanks so much!

 

Wouldn’t you fight to at least have the discussion with your employer? Even if you ended up with the same thing the government wanted to impose, would you not fight to have the ability to try?

 

Here are the two biggest concerns that I have:

  1. Yes people not in unions dislike unions. But unions are the backbone of a lot of our working class people – whether they are in one or not.  If unions fall, we should ALL be very afraid!  What the government seems to be attempting to do is to get rid of unions.  This is not about an argument with teachers. This is about the government exerting unjustified power to wave their magic wand and do whatever the heck they want and this is NOT OK!!  Whether you are in a union or not, whether you support unions or not, remember that they are the ones who have fought for statutory holidays, minimum wage, overtime and good working conditions.  Whatever is negotiated, ALL workers benefit!  Get rid of the unions – you’ll also be getting rid of the middle class.  Less people have less money to spend = more people out of jobs.  Period.

 

2.  This fight is about protecting our democratic right to free collective bargaining with our employers. If Bill 115 is allowed to stand (which I doubt, because one very similar to it was just reversed in BC because it was considered unconstitutional and unlawful by the courts), then this allows governments free reign and places themselves ABOVE the Human Rights Act and ABOVE the Employment Standards Act!! We should ALL be very scared of this! They are putting themselves ABOVE the law.

 

That’s it. Top two concerns for sure. Not about money, sick days, pension or benefits.

 

The government could have easily said to the school boards (OUR EMPLOYERS) that they had a certain amount of money and then teachers would have (just like we do every 2-4 years) negotiated our contracts with our employers. But they didn’t.

 

Because of their excessive spending over the last 8 years, the Liberals panicked when it came time for the bi-election a few months ago. In order to get the Conservative vote, they acted hard-nosed to get a majority.   How’d that work for you McGuinty?

 

I get it. You’re upset.  When teacher’s contracts are splayed out in the papers for everyone to see every few years, people get pissed off at our “privilege” and our sick days, and our summers off. We all have that one teacher who was mean to us (or 2 or 3) and it’s time we give all teachers heck because of the very few bad apples.

 

AND on top of that, what we have always gets compared to what everyone else has.

 

Teachers work hard. No one is saying that you don’t.

 

Teachers deserve every penny they get. No one is saying that you don’t.

 

Teachers need sick days because we are around sick kids who wipe their boogers on us every day. And get lice, Fifths disease and pink eye. The flu, barf on our shoes, and sneezing in our face. Oh yes. Fun times.

 

Teachers get the summers off. Yup. And we don’t get paid either. We get paid for TEN months.

 

Teachers negotiated banking sick days. This actually ended up being better for the government than paying us vacation pay, so we actually gave in and took the banked sick days over having vacation pay every year. Banking sick days means that we have a bit of a short term disability plan if we get really sick. It means that at the end if we haven’t used all of our days, we get a small retirement gratuity, which is then taxed and half taken away. This actually SAVES the government money in the long run – cheaper than the supply teachers they would have had to pay had we taken all of those days. (Let’s not mention that Dalton is getting paid right now for doing NOTHING (excuse me, I mean organizing the Liberal Leadership convention), and when he retires in a month will get a retirement gratuity of $315,000), but who notices that?

 

We get that we are well taken care of. But we help you RAISE your children. And for some, we provide a safe place, food for breakfast, a hug a day, love and support when they get that NO WHERE ELSE.

 

And we do a ton of extra-curriculars. The public loves us when we do them and they get outraged when we don't. They are ALL VOLUNTEER!!  And we love doing them, but NO ONE has the right – not our employer, not the government, and not the public – to pressure us or to chastise us when we choose not to VOLUNTEER! 

 

I had a student tell me yesterday that I have changed his life. Not because I do an after school activity with him, but because I listen to him, care for him, spend time with him and value him.

 

Yes, we’ve all had a crappy teacher or two. But please everyone… don’t make it about that. Teachers deserve your respect. You love us all year until it’s time to negotiate with our employers which we have every right to do.

 

Parents – you’re pissed off?  Good.  Because now you’re paying attention!  So how will you expend that frustration?  Posting more Facebook posts about how horrible and greedy teachers are?  I hope not.

 

Do better than that. Stand with us.

 

We are fighting for your children.  For our own children.

 

We are fighting for public education.

 

We are fighting for democracy.

 

And if we get taken down, I’d watch your back, because you might be next….

 

PLEASE sign the petition to STOP Bill 115:  http://stopbill115.ca/



#5 Mama2Gracie

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:46 PM

I've been at my current place of employment for nearly 10 years and I still don't make a starting teachers salary. I also pay into benefits and pension. AND have to take several courses and trainings per year to KEEP my job, not move up, but keep. Hearing about how much they make the "work" they need to do to move up doesn't really put me on their side.

#6 Leslie

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

I've been at my current place of employment for nearly 10 years and I still don't make a starting teachers salary. I also pay into benefits and pension. AND have to take several courses and trainings per year to KEEP my job, not move up, but keep. Hearing about how much they make the "work" they need to do to move up doesn't really put me on their side.

Did you require a university degree plus a post grad degree to get your job? Most stats will show those with a post secondary education will have a higher earning potential over time. I too have to do a lot of ongoing training and courses just to keep my job but I think most occupations do. 



#7 Mama2Gracie

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:59 PM

I have a 3 year post secondary diploma. My job requires being available 24/7/365. If I don't do my job properly, its very likely someone could get very sick and/or die. I work midnights, weekends, holidays. I take care of peoples family members while they enjoy Christmas dinner and I miss out on dinner with my own family. There is no argument that anyone is going to make to me that tells me their pay and working conditions are unfair.

#8 Leslie

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:45 PM

I have a 3 year post secondary diploma. My job requires being available 24/7/365. If I don't do my job properly, its very likely someone could get very sick and/or die. I work midnights, weekends, holidays. I take care of peoples family members while they enjoy Christmas dinner and I miss out on dinner with my own family. There is no argument that anyone is going to make to me that tells me their pay and working conditions are unfair.

But their fight isn't against pay and unfair working conditions. That's what they are trying to get people to see. Does everyone think they deserve more money and more perks and more time off - sure they do. But their fight is more a case that they didn't even get a chance TO try and negotiate. They are not all whining over wanting more. 



#9 Mama2Gracie

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:59 PM

I went into teaching because I love kids. Yes, there are many people who think we go into this profession for the money, but please consider this. A starting teachers salary in our school board is $39 000. And this is after an average of 5-7 years to get a contract. In order to move up on the pay grid, teachers must have years of experience (so our salary goes up a little every year up to a maximum of 10 years) and we must also take extra courses in order to be paid the maximum amount. So in order to reach the top of the pay scale, a teacher must have had a contract for 10 years and have taken several extra university credits (paid out of their own pockets AFTER two university degrees).

So given that it might take 10-15 years to make it to the top of the pay scale (which is still a modest amount), many peoples assertion that teachers are in this for the money really have no justification for their position. When you ask teachers to look at how good we have it, please realize that when we go into teaching, the reasons are NEVER about the money! If I wanted to get rich, I definitely would not have chosen teaching as a career.

This is the only thing that I made reference to. Also from what another teacher on this board had said, they got up and walked away first. Maybe they should have stayed. Fight, argue, whatever the hell you want to do, but keep it out of the classroom.

#10 mom2nico

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

I went into teaching because I love kids. Yes, there are many people who think we go into this profession for the money, but please consider this. A starting teachers salary in our school board is $39 000. And this is after an average of 5-7 years to get a contract. In order to move up on the pay grid, teachers must have years of experience (so our salary goes up a little every year up to a maximum of 10 years) and we must also take extra courses in order to be paid the maximum amount. So in order to reach the top of the pay scale, a teacher must have had a contract for 10 years and have taken several extra university credits (paid out of their own pockets AFTER two university degrees).

So given that it might take 10-15 years to make it to the top of the pay scale (which is still a modest amount), many peoples assertion that teachers are in this for the money really have no justification for their position. When you ask teachers to look at how good we have it, please realize that when we go into teaching, the reasons are NEVER about the money! If I wanted to get rich, I definitely would not have chosen teaching as a career.

This is the only thing that I made reference to. Also from what another teacher on this board had said, they got up and walked away first. Maybe they should have stayed. Fight, argue, whatever the hell you want to do, but keep it out of the classroom.

 

Let me re-clarify. We walked first because they refused to negotiate properly, not because we disagreed over an issue.



#11 Jill

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:34 AM

They work hard for what they earn, and IMO the responsibility they have is great.. But I agree, this isn't about money, it's about fundamental rights. Our government decided to turn a democracy into a dictatorship. We are insane to think this wont affect everyone in some way.. Teachers first, but who next? There most certainly will be a next target if we don't take a stand and refuse to accept this crap.

#12 chat_cath

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

They work hard for what they earn, and IMO the responsibility they have is great.. But I agree, this isn't about money, it's about fundamental rights. Our government decided to turn a democracy into a dictatorship. We are insane to think this wont affect everyone in some way.. Teachers first, but who next? There most certainly will be a next target if we don't take a stand and refuse to accept this crap.

 

Well said.  This is the whole point of it.  I don't know why more people don't see this.  I guess because of the government and media and just people's assumptions. 



#13 moonlightblonde

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

I've been at my current place of employment for nearly 10 years and I still don't make a starting teachers salary. I also pay into benefits and pension. AND have to take several courses and trainings per year to KEEP my job, not move up, but keep. Hearing about how much they make the "work" they need to do to move up doesn't really put me on their side.

I'd be looking for a new job - 10 years of experience , school, that kind of availability & paying for training? yikes. I don't know how you do it mama.



#14 Mama2Gracie

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:51 PM

That's how the health care field works unfortunately.

#15 Outnumbered

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:16 PM

Actually it's very telling how the majority of unionized workers now work for the public sector. Private sector unions are finding they can't compete, but in the public sector there's the perception that there's always more money.

FYI there is no constitutional right to collective bargaining.

In the past it has been the custom for the teachers unions to meet with the province to hammer out the broad lines of an agreement before taking it to the local boards. It hasn't been a problem in the past, but the Liberals made clear that they were protecting their sacred cows of all-day kindergarten and hard caps on class sizes.

#16 emmsmama

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:24 AM

They work hard for what they earn, and IMO the responsibility they have is great.. But I agree, this isn't about money, it's about fundamental rights. Our government decided to turn a democracy into a dictatorship.

Ita with you.  My kids are homeschooled, but I respect very highly the work teachers do.  Are there some crummy teachers out there?  Sure.  The majority though are working their butts off day in and day out to educate and nurture people's children and people should give them more respect.  I have a tough time sometimes teaching two children everything I feel they should learn and I marvel that teachers are trying every day to successfully help 20+ students learn and grow, especially when they are up against the disrepsect and ignorance some people show for them and what they do.

 

I agree with you as well that it is also about having the right to stand up for themselves.

 

Mama2Gracie, I don't agree at all with the idea that just because one group of people is underpaid, that others shouldn't be able to stand up for the pay, hours, benefit, etc. they deserve.  I'm not saying I agree with everything teachers have ever fought for, but just because one group is paid poorly doesn't mean another group should have to settle for whatever is given them.  The attitude of, "My pay/hours/workplace sucks so yours should too," is ridiculous.



#17 Mama2Gracie

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:54 AM

I said I don't feel sorry for them and leave the kids out of it. I don't give a shit what they fight for. I have nothing at stake here. My kids not even in school till next year and will be going to French catholic school. I'm saying don't whine about what you don't have. Be grateful for what you do. There's a thousand people standing behind you that would gratefully work for less than what you make. Fight all you want but do it outside of classroom hours. You really want to better the future for kids? Than educate them.

#18 cbarker78

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:03 AM

I have HUGE respect for the men and women who commit their adult life to teaching the next generations of children! There are times my own two girls make me want to tear my hair out, let alone a room full of them!! I co-op'd in a Grade One class, and OMG!! What did I get out of that experience? Lice, 3 colds, one child throwing up on me, and a hell of a lot more respect for teachers!! 

 

My beef is with the unions themselves and the tactics the government decided to employ. Both sides acted childish and there was no need for any of the BS stunts either side pulled !! 

 

Personally, I feel teachers are severely underpaid for the responsibilities they carry, and for the actual tasks they do!! I mean, come on now people.... these men and women that we send our own children to on a daily basis are going to be role models for them. They are teaching our children the skills & knowledge that prepares them for adulthood ((simmer down, yes a lot of it we do at home, but unless you're homeschooling our kids are learning most of it at school!)).

 

Think back to your grade school and high school days. You had teachers that you absolutely loved, and some you didn't. You hold many memories - good & bad of the men and women who were entrusted to teach you. Sure there are some who really care about what they do and are the amazing super heroes we fondly tell our own kids about, and there are some who just skate by doing the minimum amount of work. 

 

I would like to see a switch in the public sector..... start paying the teachers in this province what our MPP's make, and pay the politicians what the teachers make!! This way we won't have to worry about under stocked class rooms, and we'll pay the politicians what they are actually worth for the amount of work they actually do!! 



#19 Leslie

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:12 AM

I said I don't feel sorry for them and leave the kids out of it. I don't give a shit what they fight for. I have nothing at stake here. My kids not even in school till next year and will be going to French catholic school. I'm saying don't whine about what you don't have. Be grateful for what you do. There's a thousand people standing behind you that would gratefully work for less than what you make. Fight all you want but do it outside of classroom hours. You really want to better the future for kids? Than educate them.

 

But if you think the Catholic board is just all happy-go-lucky and doesnt have any contract fights on their hands - think again. They are in as MUCH if not more financial deficeit as the public board. In fact I believe the controversy of last year where they fired all their librarians shows that they too have issues on their hands. Their teachers are not happy with their union simply settling without a fight either.

 

Taking the attitude 'I have no stake in this' when you actally have kids is IMO not a good attitude. Decisions made today are going to affect YOUR kids downline -- and dont think this has no impact on the Catholic board over the years to come. 



I have HUGE respect for the men and women who commit their adult life to teaching the next generations of children! There are times my own two girls make me want to tear my hair out, let alone a room full of them!! I co-op'd in a Grade One class, and OMG!! What did I get out of that experience? Lice, 3 colds, one child throwing up on me, and a hell of a lot more respect for teachers!! 

 

My beef is with the unions themselves and the tactics the government decided to employ. Both sides acted childish and there was no need for any of the BS stunts either side pulled !! 

 

Personally, I feel teachers are severely underpaid for the responsibilities they carry, and for the actual tasks they do!! I mean, come on now people.... these men and women that we send our own children to on a daily basis are going to be role models for them. They are teaching our children the skills & knowledge that prepares them for adulthood ((simmer down, yes a lot of it we do at home, but unless you're homeschooling our kids are learning most of it at school!)).

 

Think back to your grade school and high school days. You had teachers that you absolutely loved, and some you didn't. You hold many memories - good & bad of the men and women who were entrusted to teach you. Sure there are some who really care about what they do and are the amazing super heroes we fondly tell our own kids about, and there are some who just skate by doing the minimum amount of work. 

 

I would like to see a switch in the public sector..... start paying the teachers in this province what our MPP's make, and pay the politicians what the teachers make!! This way we won't have to worry about under stocked class rooms, and we'll pay the politicians what they are actually worth for the amount of work they actually do!! 

 

 AWESOME post!



#20 Jill

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:56 PM

Jenn-  That is NOT how healthcare works??  What do you do exactly, in healthcare?  I'm just curious!  At the hospital we have paid training, and if it's not paid extra we do it during work time and get our regular pay at worst.  Also we may not be payed more per hour for the upgrade, just depends on what it is.  We also get subsidized if we want to go back to school to increase our skill level.  Professional development is a huge thing in healthcare, obviously..  I just don't understand how they could force you, make you pay, and give you nothing in return?

 

IMO you should seek other employment as well.  Clearly that employer does not care about the employees!



#21 Mama2Gracie

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:09 PM

I work in a 24 hour support system. My job requires all of its employees to be available at all times. SOMEBODY has to be there 24 hours a day. That is how the health system works. I am required to stay up to date on first aid, level C CPR, crisis prevention training, health and safety, as well as several other ministry requirements. If any of it lapses, I am not licensed to work. We don't get raises for additional training. You get raises based on experience in the position you are in, only if you're in a full time position, which took me 7 years of seniority to acquire, and you cap out after 3 years. All our part time employees are paid the exact same whether you have worked there 6 months or 16 years.

#22 Jill

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:40 PM

Wow.. You have to really want that job, I guess!

I work in the healthcare field and I'm just saying, it's not like that everywhere! I also need the CPR, I don't even count that though.. I do pay 20$ a year for that through the hospital.

#23 Mama2Gracie

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:05 PM

Those lovely perks were brought on by the wonderful union ;). Like I said on fb, its a good job, I'm not going to receive the pay I receive anywhere else, especially starting brand new in a place after being somewhere else nearly 10 years. There are parts of the job that sucks, every job has parts that suck. I choose to be grateful for the fact that I even have a job when there are a lot if people out there with a lot more education than I have that are unemployed.

#24 Spanky2

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:28 PM

To all those who want teachers paid MORE or full support their current job action, are you really willing to sacrifice the other areas of government services to give them MORE?  Health care?  Child care subsidies, Ontario Works, food inspections, colleges and universities?  The list goes on and on.  When is it enough?  Do you want them earning more than police or doctors?

 

Really?

 

 

They work hard for what they earn, and IMO the responsibility they have is great.. But I agree, this isn't about money, it's about fundamental rights. Our government decided to turn a democracy into a dictatorship. We are insane to think this wont affect everyone in some way.. Teachers first, but who next? There most certainly will be a next target if we don't take a stand and refuse to accept this crap.

 

Well said.  This is the whole point of it.  I don't know why more people don't see this.  I guess because of the government and media and just people's assumptions. 

 

 

Also, I ask why YOU don't see the part of the government.  The gravy train had to end for the teachers.  Sick leave payouts?  Really?  I know many boards negotiated that out long ago, but don't fool yourselves - that's a big issue for them. Every single teacher still has their human rights and is still protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  I don't recall the Federal government amending the charter to say, "This no longer applies to Ontario public teachers".  They are having an issue with the interpretation of the bill, so take the fight where it belongs - to court, not to school.  The only party talking about fundamentally changing the rights of unions are the Torys.  So if you don't believe in that, don't vote for them.  


Edited by Spanky2, 15 January 2013 - 07:29 PM.


#25 Jill

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:39 PM

They took collective bargaining right out of the equation and imposed a contract! How is that not taking away rights?

#26 Spanky2

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:38 PM

Please explain where there is a constitutional right to collective bargaining?



#27 Jill

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:41 AM

Where did I say it was a constitutional right? I said it was a fundamental right. They bargain they contracts.. The person actually living the contract gets a say, a vote. Bill 115 removes that right.

Who loses it next? When does it stop? Do we let the gov. decide all of our contracts?

#28 Leslie

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:01 AM

If the government is going to take away the ability to allow a union to negotiate on behalf of its members.....then I guess the goverment will have to make it illegal for any govt funded profession to HAVE a union. IS that what most people believe is fair?

 

 

Those lovely perks were brought on by the wonderful union ;). Like I said on fb, its a good job, I'm not going to receive the pay I receive anywhere else, especially starting brand new in a place after being somewhere else nearly 10 years. There are parts of the job that sucks, every job has parts that suck. I choose to be grateful for the fact that I even have a job when there are a lot if people out there with a lot more education than I have that are unemployed.

 

And Jenn -- you just said it yourself. Your wonderful union is who got you what you have. What if next time around that union is told, not by your employer but by a 3rd party -- and as health care is funded by the govt it may well be the govt  'sorry you dont get to negotiate - this is what you now are getting.'  I  bet you and your fellow employees would be fighting over that.

 

 

I know there was an article in today's Star where Buzz Hargrove was encouraging the teachers to go back to extra-curricular activities as unfortunately parents are getting pissed off instead of seeing the issue for what it is - a big McGuinty mess up - but that it could burn them in the next election. Lewenza's stance was the opposite.....he believes they should be doing what they are.



#29 Mama2Gracie

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:43 PM

I was being sarcastic. I hate our union. It does nothing protect the lazy

#30 Spanky2

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:50 PM

OK, so how do you feel about binding arbitration for essential services?  Are they being denied their "fundamental" rights?  I don't think that term exists under any human rights law.  It's not in the preamble to the OHRA.



#31 mysticmom

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:11 PM

We need to stand up in Canada like they do in the U.S.  We should be able to vote on stuff like they do.  We just vote in parties and they ALL do what they want.  Looking pretty bad here in Windsor, high unemployment, low paying jobs.  If Chrysler's closes, it will be a ghost town!



#32 Leslie

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:22 PM

Take for example the police -- they are not allowed to unionize but do have an 'association' that bargains on behalf of its employees. An arbitrator was assigned when they could not reach agreement on some key issues and in fact just awarded the police an 11.7% raise.

 

Right or wrong, at least a third party 'supposedly impartial' arbitrator was brought to the table to listent to both sides arguements and make a ruling. Should the teachers then not have the same thing afforded to them, whether in the end they gain or lose in their contract?



#33 Jill

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:34 PM

Arbitration comes in when the parties can't decide, this person shouldn't have a horse in the race. Therefore can decide more fairly. It's not the best thing, but it does have it's place.

The government just took away their right to strike (which I don't disagree with deeming education an essential service) and said here is your contract in which you have no say and have pretty much no means to argue against!

Slippery slope if we allow this! Also fundamental was more my word of how I view these rights..

Edited by Jill, 17 January 2013 - 01:34 PM.


#34 cbarker78

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:41 PM

As recently as July 2007 the Right to Collective Bargaining is a Charter Right http://www.ehlaw.ca/...7/Foucs0707.pdf

 

 

"Supreme Court of Canada extends Charter protection to collective bargaining

By a 6-1 majority, the Supreme Court of Canada has overruled 20 years of its own jurisprudence and held that the procedural right of collective bargaining is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms."

 

"Where the employer is the government, the right requires both employer and employees to meet and to bargain in good faith, in the pursuit of a common goal of peaceful and productive accommodation."

 

"Given that the right to collectively bargain is a right to a process, not to an outcome, for a Charter action to succeed, the interference with the right must be so substantial that it interferes not only with the attainment of the union members’ objectives (which is not protected), but with the very process that enables them to pursue these objectives by engaging in meaningful negotiations with the employer."

 

"The Court stated that determining whether a government measure affecting the protected process of collective bargaining amounts to substantial interference involves asking two questions: 1) how important is the affected matter to the process of collective bargaining, and to the capacity of the union members to pursue collective goals in concert and 2) in what manner does the state’s action impact on the collective right to good faith negotiation and consultation.

The duty to negotiate in good faith, the Court stated, is central to the determination of whether a state action constitutes substantial interference. In considering whether the state action infringes the collective right to good faith negotiations and consultation, regard must be had for the circumstances surrounding these actions. However, the Court stated, the bottom line is that such actions must preserve the process of good faith consultation fundamental to collective bargaining."

 

Now anyone who knows me, knows I am not a fan of most Unions on the basis that they have fallen so far away from their original purposes ((protecting employees who DESERVE protection, and attaining better working conditions - not to enrich everyone who holds a union membership)) 

 

Instead of getting all best out of shape over what we perceive the teachers to be doing or not doing, take a few minutes and please read the legislation that started this whole mess :  http://www.ontla.on.....do?BillID=2665

 

Some points that stuck out to me: 

 

 

 

Inconsistent with the terms of an employment contract

   (2)  An employment contract is inconsistent with the terms described in subsection (1) if it includes terms that change, nullify or limit the operation of a term described in subsection (1).

- Subsection 1 dealt with no raises, sick days, pay for sick leave, etc, so this clause is basically saying that the Unions cannot bargain any of the TEN terms listed in the Act (( IMO - bad faith )) 

 

 

 

Board’s mandate re inclusion of terms

   4.  (1)  When engaging in collective bargaining for a collective agreement that would apply during the restraint period, each board has a mandate to negotiate for collective agreements that include the following terms and are not inconsistent with those terms:

    1.  In respect of a collective agreement between a board and a designated bargaining agent for a teachers’ bargaining unit, as those terms are defined in subsection 277.1 (1) of the Education Act, represented by the Ontario English Catholic Teachers’ Association, the terms set out in the “Memorandum of Understanding between the Ministry of Education and the Ontario English Catholic Teachers’ Association (OECTA)”, dated July 5th, 2012, subject to any prescribed modifications and replacements.  (Memo can be found at http://www.edu.gov.o...ecta2012eng.pdf

Same terms as described in earlier section - this paragraph says that everyone else must come to these same terms ((read the Memo!!))

 

 

 

 

6.  (1)  The first collective agreement settled between a board and an employee bargaining agent that applies during the restraint period shall provide for a term of two years.

Deemed term

   (2)  A collective agreement described in subsection (1) that does not provide for a term of two years is deemed to provide for it.

 

 - again, should this not be something that is settled as an agreement between the two parties at the table ?! 

 

 

Deemed provisions

   (2)  If a collective agreement that applies during the restraint period and that has come into operation in accordance with subsection 8 (9), (12) or (13) does not include an applicable term described in subsection 4 (1), the collective agreement is deemed to include the term, and if the term is prescribed under clause 19 (1) © after the beginning of the restraint period, the collective agreement is deemed to have provided for the term as of the commencement date for the collective agreement.

- This is the governments way of saying we are going to tell you what to do. If the CA you come up with does not match what we have laid out, we are just going to assume OUR terms not yours. 
 

 

Arbitration

   (4)  Every arbitration award made in respect of terms and conditions of employment that apply during the restraint period shall include the applicable terms described in subsection 4 (1) and shall not be inconsistent with those terms.

 (5)  If an arbitration award made in respect of terms and conditions of employment that apply during the restraint period does not include the applicable terms described in subsection 4 (1), it is deemed to include them.

 - We the gov't are not going to all Arbitrators to change any of our terms! 
 
....and on and on and on... more of the same.... 
 
So tell me, in light of the terms dictated in Bill 115, how is this not bad faith on behalf of the government? What terms were the Board & Union left with to discuss? 
 
 


#35 mom2nico

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:14 PM

I really wish we had a like button. Thank you to everyone who supports the teacher's message and position even if you don't agree with their actions.